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Meta / metaphysics
This is the channel for the discussion of metaphysical and parapsychological subjects. Please keep discussion of these topics to this channel and out of the rest of the server.
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I mean to be dismissive, lol.
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Hahaha
5:13 AM
I don't mind anyone being dismissive towards it
5:13 AM
Just another excuse for me to keep talking about it ;P
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:14 AM
Here's where this kinda falls apart though sadly
5:14 AM
He who says he can and he who says he can't are both usually right
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Huh?
5:14 AM
can or can't what? Make choices out of one's own volition?
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A long kiss goodnight 5/21/2020 5:15 AM
We should dive deep into this conversation later, it exceeds our 1 am brain copacity (edited)
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I would very much welcome it 🙂
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:17 AM
Unfortunately it also seems implied by your 5 causes of suffering, that it's wrong to feel this way about those things
5:17 AM
"Attachment to outcomes" also encapsulates giving a shit about literally anything
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It's hard to word it in a way where it isn't perceived as an instruction "not to feel that way"
5:18 AM
Suffering is not "wrong", because like everything else, it's a result of the way life conditions us
5:18 AM
But it's based on a misperception and can fall away
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:18 AM
If someone kills your dog, maybe you should feel unhappy about that
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This is where my earlier comment from lounge comes in
5:19 AM
When a loved one dies, you're naturally going to be sad. Emotional pain. But sadness doesn't become unhappiness unless there's an added layer of "I should have spent more time with them, I'm too sad, I'm not sad enough" etc
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:19 AM
4) worries and anxiety This is literally a blanket emotion for when your subconscious is screaming at you that somethings wrong
5:20 AM
You knowing something in relation to your identity is wrong is of course a cause of unhappiness wtf (edited)
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First a disclaimer, words are tricky
5:23 AM
What's meant by "worries and anxiety" is pointlessly obsessing about the future, fantasizing about bad things that could happen, etc
5:24 AM
knowing something in relation to your identity is wrong
This description suggests that the "identity" is what causes unhappiness (including worries and anxiety), but again, words are tricky, "identity" in this context means something very specific
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:25 AM
I would say, well, yeah
5:26 AM
If you identify as already being as good as dead there's not a lot that'll bother you either
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"Identity" in the sense of being a "doer" entity that is completely separate from life and uninfluenced by life, which is described as the misperception that causes all suffering
5:26 AM
To not realize you're a component of life, in each moment functioning in the only way you can
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:26 AM
Which is where I feel like this Buddhist stuff tends to lead
5:27 AM
It basically says that there's no meaning
5:27 AM
So you shouldn't be bothered by losing literally everything
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"Attachment to outcomes" also encapsulates giving a shit about literally anything
Not according to this description (which, again, is not a Buddhist teaching)
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:27 AM
And to me that's just too far
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you shouldn't be bothered
This is not a prescription telling you how to live
5:28 AM
It doesn't say "you shouldn't be bothered", it says "the uncomfortableness with how life unfolds can fall away when certain things click"
5:30 AM
When it says "your attachment to outcomes can fall away", it doesn't mean that your ambition or your enthusiasm fall away
5:31 AM
"Attachment to outcomes" really just means the belief that "pain takes away from my completeness, and my happiness is to be found some day in pleasant future circumstance"
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:31 AM
>Happiness is the unbroken peace of mind regardless of circumstance
5:32 AM
Are you trying to imply that there aren't circumstances which will absolutely break someone's peace of mind?
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The thing is, this is a description of what is potentially available in theory. It's a spiritual teaching that people usually come across after already having had certain realizations, such as "pleasure has never resulted in sustainable happiness"
5:34 AM
But yes, the "end goal" (for lack of a better word) is unbroken peace of mind
5:34 AM
Because circumstance was never what got in the way of peace of mind in the first place
5:35 AM
The only thing that "gets in the way" of peace of mind is a belief system about who we are
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:36 AM
It is spiritual teaching. And while I do agree with some of it, it being so spiritual is why I think its wrong
5:37 AM
Millions of years weren't spent evolving just so humanity could realise that nothing mattered and unlock eternal bliss
👆 1
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Keep in mind it's not intended as a truth. These concepts are pointers to weigh against our own experience. If you've experienced sustainable happiness through pleasure, or if you have a belief that sustainable happiness is impossible, this framework can't be true
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:37 AM
There's very real materialist substrates to our psychology
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Catherine you are the best. 😁
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This description doesn't say that nothing matters, I think you're inferring that from your experiences with Buddhism?
5:39 AM
And yes, suffering, just as every other aspect of us, is a result of evolution
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:39 AM
I guess I'm kinda lacking the contextual framework
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Yeah the guy I'm copping it from only uploads two-hour videos, so my summary is pretty condensed
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:40 AM
And gosh, what framework should you even frame suffering in, lmao that's opening up the portal right there
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I love this framework because it lines up with my own experience 100 %
5:41 AM
My unhappiness has absolutely nothing to do with physical or emotional pain
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:41 AM
You're sure about that?
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Yeah
5:42 AM
I started having "insights" about that before I found these teachings (which I did about two years ago)
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:42 AM
So what causes your unhappiness?
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I'll say it with the words of this description because I can't find any better words for it
5:45 AM
I'll give real-life examples afterwards
5:46 AM
The belief that I could and should have acted differently in the past, so I'm a failure; the belief that other people could and should have acted differently, so I have to hate them; the belief that life needs to turn out according to my expectations, otherwise I'll be unhappy and incomplete
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Because I stressed and worried about how I acted in the past, I changed my behavior going forward, and I'm in a very good place now.
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:47 AM
So basically, the mind doesn't forgive itself for not being able to apply hindsight retroactively?
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More or less Catherine
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:48 AM
Yeah I guess that's kind of a bitch
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It's this fiction about how life could have turned out in the past, and a fiction about how it should turn out in the future
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:49 AM
I think lily brings up a good point too though
5:49 AM
Regret serves a purpose
5:49 AM
It helps you recalibrate how you make decisions
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Suffering is sort of self-perpetuating. It includes the belief "I need to feel guilty, because I'm insufficient and I need to become a better person"
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:51 AM
The more painful, the more permanently you learn
👆 1
5:52 AM
Assuming you don't cross the line where its just too much and it just actually makes you crazier
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This description says (and the reason I buy it is because I can tell from watching and listening to my teacher that he's not bullshitting) that even after guilt, regrets and expectations fall away, we still function normally, learning from painful experiences, being changed by new conditioning life delivers, acting according to our preferences, including our ambitions, talents, etc (edited)
5:53 AM
You can learn from painful experiences even when there is no more fiction about "this should never have happened"
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That's literally how I look at it basically @Deleted User . I allow myself to beat myself up, but try not to do so behind the point which it serves as a good motivator.
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Yeah I mean suffering varies in intensity from person to person, it definitely sounds like Lily's is rather mild at this point
5:56 AM
If you're content with where you're at, this description is useless to you (as you've figured out yourself)
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:57 AM
I can tell you from experience that there is a point where you can be a monk and the intensity of suffering will absolutely be enough to break you
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Yeah, "being a monk" is not an automatic fix
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As an example: "Wow, I really fucked up. I can do better than this, I was being careless and didn't think it through/try hard enough." = Good. "Wow, I really fucked this up and I am a failure and I am never going to do better because I'm weak/stupid." = Bad.
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The teaching wouldn't call either one of them "bad" ;P
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:58 AM
What you say shake, though, does reflect a bit of truth about the subconscious and how it works
5:59 AM
"This shouldn't have ever happened" is basically probably the best word choice I can think of for how the subconscious actually thinks
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Suffering is useful, it's suffering uselessly that is bad. And you maybe even should beat yourself up about beating yourself up in pointless ways. Everything in moderation my friend. Most things can be put to good use and also applied to excess or used in the wrong situations.
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 5:59 AM
The subconscious is basically your body guard
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There is no one single fix.
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 6:00 AM
When you get hit with something it didn't see coming, its never happy
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"Wow, I really fucked up. I can do better than this, I was being careless and didn't think it through/try hard enough."
This is sort of "too vague" to classify as suffering or not (whereas the second example clearly is). It's only suffering if there's an uncomfortableness, resulting from the fiction that "I could have prevented this because I'm the one who makes life happen, and I should have prevented it based on how I expect myself to function". The sentence I quoted only says "I can do better in the future", which is not necessarily suffering
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 6:03 AM
That's when the subconscious starts talking to the conscious lol
6:03 AM
Asking Wtf just happened
6:04 AM
Put simply, the subconscious is constantly on lookout for anything that breaks pattern
6:05 AM
When you reach into your pocket after leaving some place for your phone or keys and your hand feels nothing, you'll feel whats wrong- before you even think it (edited)
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Everything in moderation my friend. Most things can be put to good use and also applied to excess or used in the wrong situations.
As I keep saying, if where you're at works for you, great!, this description isn't meant for you. But I can only reiterate that if you actually talk/watch/listen to people who report an experience that's completely free from "suffering" or "fiction", they will tell you that they're still functioning as a normal human being, learning from mistakes, saying sorry if they hurt someone, etc. They will tell you from experience that suffering isn't necessary to function normally, and in fact your intellect becomes more efficient when the fictitious story falls away
6:07 AM
Beating yourself up is not necessary to learn from your mistakes
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 6:07 AM
I would be interested in maybe some psychometric results on that
6:08 AM
People who live like that, how their stress levels, motivation, success rates, etc change
6:08 AM
Compared to people who live differently
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From everything I have observed that assumption is false.
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Deleted User 5/21/2020 6:08 AM
Or by different philosophies
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How many people who report an experience free from suffering have you observed to come to that conclusion, Lily?
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